Democrats Drop Key Part of Bill to Assist Unions-card check dropped (or is it?)

[Vonne]

I am guessing that you belong to a union.

Yep, but don't worry... Bush's appointee gave me a nice parting gift on the way out... stole 18k that was personally owed to me from a union grievance.

[Wretched Excess]

What point is an election, if someone stands over your shoulder threatening your families well being if you vote a certain way.  Than decides the election is a farce, if the outcome doesn't suit their wishes...

Are you favoring Venezuelan or Zimbabwe elections?  Russian perhaps? 

not necessarily.  but you are favoring indimidation during the card check process.  at least an election is supposed to be private.

[Wretched Excess]

Yep, but don't worry... Bush's appointee gave me a nice parting gift on the way out... stole 18k that was personally owed to me from a union grievance.

unions killed the auto industry.  unions killed the steel industry.  unions are trying to kill every industry that is still viable.

I know you from CC, and respect you.  but your position on unions is crap.

[Vonne]

not necessarily.  but you are favoring indimidation during the card check process.  at least an election is supposed to be private.

The fear of union intimidation during a card check process is real too me.  While actual hooligan activities maybe slim, the intimidation of mere peer pressure is strong.  Additionally, during these drives or elections, there is a heavy current of emotion from people.  Which can easily lead to inappropriate conduct or actions.  I am not in favor of anyone being pressured to vote a certain way; whether by peer pressure, fear, or goons.

That being said.  Corporations routinely hire thugs and consultants to intimidate prospective union members and organizers.  While any perceived thuggery from a union official is Federally cracked down upon, immediately.  Union officials routinely have Federal background checks conducted upon them, and are more heavily watched than the companies they're fighting.  Additionally, if you consult with a labor attorney, I'm unaware of any union drive where the given company didn't blatantly violate the laws against threatening the prospective union members before the vote.  

Yes, an election should be private IMHO.  However, what's the point of calling it an election if it's done Venezuelan style?  In those cases, you'd be better off just staying home and in private....

 

[Wretched Excess]

do you think that unions are a good thing or a bad thing?

[Wretched Excess]

The fear of union intimidation during a card check process is real too me.  While actual hooligan activities maybe slim, the intimidation of mere peer pressure is strong.  Additionally, during these drives or elections, there is a heavy current of emotion from people.  Which can easily lead to inappropriate conduct or actions.  I am not in favor of anyone being pressured to vote a certain way; whether by peer pressure, fear, or goons.

That being said.  Corporations routinely hire thugs and consultants to intimidate prospective union members and organizers.  While any perceived thuggery from a union official is Federally cracked down upon, immediately.  Union officials routinely have Federal background checks conducted upon them, and are more heavily watched than the companies they're fighting.  Additionally, if you consult with a labor attorney, I'm unaware of any union drive where the given company didn't blatantly violate the laws against threatening the prospective union members before the vote.  

Yes, an election should be private IMHO.  However, what's the point of calling it an election if it's done Venezuelan style?  In those cases, you'd be better off just staying home and in private....

your point that union elections are full of thuggery is to create more thuggery?

[Vonne]

unions killed the auto industry.  unions killed the steel industry.  unions are trying to kill every industry that is still viable.

I know you from CC, and respect you.  but your position on unions is crap.

Quite honestly, I don't think it's fair to blame the unions in those industries.  Did they have a part, of course.  As did the management of those companies.  But pinning the blame on them is a bit too much IMHO.  I've wrote extensively on CC and some other sites about my views on the downfall of the auto and steel industry.  That's an entirely drawn out topic, to get into as an offshoot of this thread though.

No worries WE, I really don't mind a discussion where we disagree.  I actually enjoy them, because I do hope to learn, or analyze my own positions from a different view.

do you think that unions are a good thing or a bad thing?

I've been both for and against particular unions in the past, and still believe they're merely a tool or legal construct. They can be used for the good, bad, indifference, or what have you.  Just as any other tool or construct, and yes, I'm in a union you could say.  Overall though, I consider them... needed...

[Vonne]

your point that union elections are full of thuggery is to create more thuggery?

No, I honestly feel that a card check process would reduce the amount of thuggery in the process.  What I mentioned it bringing into the equation though, was more peer pressure... which I'm not fond of... but see no better choice, with the current system.

[Wretched Excess]

No, I honestly feel that a card check process would reduce the amount of thuggery in the process.  What I mentioned it bringing into the equation though, was more peer pressure... which I'm not fond of... but see no better choice, with the current system.

and peer pressure would be reduced by card check?

[Vonne]

and peer pressure would be reduced by card check?

No, in fact I believe it would be significantly enhanced.  Which I'm not fond of.  My apologies that I didn't convey that earlier in a clearer manner, had a phone call.

[Vonne]

Out of curiosity, besides just general disdain, what is it about unions which you despise so much?  Contracts, Collective Bargaining, Safety, enforcement of Workers Rights, fear of a burden on profits or reduced flexibility?  

[Wretched Excess]

Out of curiosity, besides just general disdain, what is it about unions which you despise so much?  Contracts, Collective Bargaining, Safety, enforcement of Workers Rights, fear of a burden on profits or reduced flexibility?  

the destruction of capital, the destructive notion that management and labor are necessarily enemies, the fact that it increases the costs of goods and services (and everything that goes along with that),  and that it discourages individual initiative while encouraging collective endolence.  unions protect the ineffective from the industrious, which is to subvert the natural arrangement of those things.

unions are an artifice that were required a hundred years ago, but have long since outlived their uselfullnes.  but since they provide a good living to the people that run them, they are turning to any means possible to keep them alive.  including buying the central government.

[Vonne]

not necessarily.  but you are favoring indimidation during the card check process.  at least an election is supposed to be private.

I missed this the other night, and really want to address this as it IS something that greatly bothers me.  I fully believe that with a card check process, peer pressure will be a factor.  I DO consider that intimidation.  I DESPISE the notion of giving up the sanctity of a secret ballot.

However... one would be wrong if you assumed that the peer pressure would only be pro-union.  I find the current level of illegal corporate intimidation during elections intolerable, inexcusable, and undeniably illegal.  The current system is overall, a farce and sham election.  Bush and his appointees were so anti-labor, that they've decimated the democratic process IMHO.  Which is why I've, with great reluctance, embraced the card check provision. 

[Vonne]

the destruction of capital, the destructive notion that management and labor are necessarily enemies, the fact that it increases the costs of goods and services (and everything that goes along with that),  and that it discourages individual initiative while encouraging collective endolence.  unions protect the ineffective from the industrious, which is to subvert the natural arrangement of those things.

unions are an artifice that were required a hundred years ago, but have long since outlived their uselfullnes.  but since they provide a good living to the people that run them, they are turning to any means possible to keep them alive.  including buying the central government.

I honestly believe those views to be a mischaracterization of unions and their effects.  Again I emphasize that I see a union structure as a legal tool, it can be misused, if can cause collateral damage, but it can also build something which brings prosperity to all involved.  

I do not wish to debate nor attempt to persuade you to having the same opinion as I.  If you would like though, I can explain my position further.    

[Miss Mia]

I honestly believe those views to be a mischaracterization of unions and their effects.  Again I emphasize that I see a union structure as a legal tool, it can be misused, if can cause collateral damage, but it can also build something which brings prosperity to all involved.  

I do not wish to debate nor attempt to persuade you to having the same opinion as I.  If you would like though, I can explain my position further.    

Not to step on WE's toes by any means, but I'm interested in you explaining further.  I've found this thread quite interesting.