Joe Wilson has become the new Joe the Plumber

[JohnBrowdie]

the early spin is that wilson's outburst has somehow turned reality on it's head.  democrats are "energized".  his outburst is a "game changer".  if that's true, then the world has truly gone mad.  we are debating the wisdom of nationalizing health care in the middle of "the greatest financial crisis since the great depression" and after we have already semi-nationalized the auto and mortgage industries?  seriously?  that's what we are talking about the morning after The Great Speech?  a heckle?

good God. 

Wilson's rallying cry

All eyes were on Barack Obama entering Wednesday night's address to Congress, but a little-known South Carolina Republican may have done more than the president’s combative speech to unify besieged Democrats around health care reform.

The night's defining moment — which Democrats hope to transform into a turning point – came when Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) shouted "You lie!" as Obama claimed his plan wouldn't offer free care to illegal immigrants.

Wilson's boorishness — for which he quickly apologized — enraged audience members on both sides of the aisle.

It also overshadowed a speech that included some of Obama's harshest attacks on his GOP critics to date, including a denunciation of "death panel" alarmists as liars — a veiled swipe at Sarah Palin — and a warning to Republicans who want to "kill" reform.

"What we have also seen in these last months is the same partisan spectacle that only hardens the disdain many Americans have toward their own government," Obama said. "Too many have used this as an opportunity to score short-term political points, even if it robs the country of our opportunity to solve a long-term challenge. And out of this blizzard of charges and counter-charges, confusion has reigned.

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[Miss Mia]

I was actually a little stunned when they said it was a congressman that did it, I had assumed it was some guest of someone.  Either he was confused that this was a townhall or he thought he was in England.

[JohnBrowdie]

I was actually a little stunned when they said it was a congressman that did it, I had assumed it was some guest of someone.  Either he was confused that this was a townhall or he thought he was in England.

I'm not the "tit-for-tat" type, but I remember paul wellstone coming unhinged as a solo act when Bush I said "single payer health care system" in a SotU speech.

it happens. 

[Miss Mia]

I'm not the "tit-for-tat" type, but I remember paul wellstone coming unhinged as a solo act when Bush I said "single payer health care system" in a SotU speech.

it happens. 

That I do not remember.  I would find that unbecoming as well. 

[JohnBrowdie]

the democrats are violating one if the 10 commandments of politics;  never step on your own message.  this joe wilson thing is outta control.  instead of the substance of health care reform, everyone is talking about "the outburst".  decorum is all well and good, but it's possible to cripple yourself while obsessing over it.

the dem leadership wants to censure him.  if that is actually sent before the house for a vote, then the republicans aren't going to have a choice other than to attempt to prove that what the president said was a lie.  and that's going to suck for the dems, because I think it probably was.

and why am I certain that if if a democrat member of the house stood up during bush's final SotU speech and shouted, "Burn in Hell, you Murderer!", that the MSM spin on it would have been, "Representative Angel bravely spoke truth to power"?

[Miss Mia]

the democrats are violating one if the 10 commandments of politics;  never step on your own message.  this joe wilson thing is outta control.  instead of the substance of health care reform, everyone is talking about "the outburst".  decorum is all well and good, but it's possible to cripple yourself while obsessing over it.

the dem leadership wants to censure him.  if that is actually sent before the house for a vote, then the republicans aren't going to have a choice other than to attempt to prove that what the president said was a lie.  and that's going to suck for the dems, because I think it probably was.

and why am I certain that if if a democrat member of the house stood up during bush's final SotU speech and shouted, "Burn in Hell, you Murderer!", that the MSM spin on it would have been, "Representative Angel bravely spoke truth to power"?

Here's what PolitiFact says:

Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn't

We suspect it's rare that the president gets heckled during a speech to a joint session of Congress, but Rep. Joe Wilson didn't hold back.

"You lie!" shouted the South Carolina Republican. This was in response to President Barack Obama's statements on illegal immigrants.

"There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants," Obama said. "This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

So who's right here? Wilson or Obama?

Incidentally, Wilson apologized for the outburst after the speech, but said he still disagreed with Obama's statement.

-snip-

link

[JohnBrowdie]

Here's what PolitiFact says:

I am sure it won't surprise you when I say that politifact can bite me.

why the mysterious and sudden change last night in the number of people that will be covered dropping from 47 million to 30 million?  and why are dems scurrying all over capitol hill today to specifically exclude illegals?  It's usually smarter to watch what they do, not what they say.  the bill would have allowed coverage for illegals by not specifically disallowing it.

the sophistry is a little disgusting, frankly.  saying "there is nothing in the bill that provides coverage for illegals" simply isn't responsive to the question of whether or not illegals will ultimately, in reality, be covered. 

and what are you going to do with illegals, by the way?  let 'em die and give birth in the parking lot of the ER?  if you are going to have "universal health care", it should probably cover illegals.  (yeah, I said it)  if that is too much of a problem, then it knocks a big hole in the whole concept of "universal" health care in the first place.

[Miss Mia]

I am sure it won't surprise you when I say that politifact can bite me.

why the mysterious and sudden change last night in the number of people that will be covered dropping from 47 million to 30 million?  and why are dems scurrying all over capitol hill today to specifically exclude illegals?  It's usually smarter to watch what they do, not what they say.  the bill would have allowed coverage for illegals by not specifically disallowing it.

the sophistry is a little disgusting, frankly.  saying "there is nothing in the bill that provides coverage for illegals" simply isn't responsive to the question of whether or not illegals will ultimately, in reality, be covered. 

and what are you going to do with illegals, by the way?  let 'em die and give birth in the parking lot of the ER?  if you are going to have "universal health care", it should probably cover illegals.  (yeah, I said it)  if that is too much of a problem, then it knocks a big hole in the whole concept of "universal" health care in the first place.

Okay, I read some more today about this whole illegal immigrant and health care.  Apparently, they will be able to purchase insurance, they just won't get a tax break on it.  Which pretty much makes sense, at least to me.

[JohnBrowdie]

Okay, I read some more today about this whole illegal immigrant and health care.  Apparently, they will be able to purchase insurance, they just won't get a tax break on it.  Which pretty much makes sense, at least to me.

okay, what happens when they don't?  people who's presence in this country is a violation of federal law are very unlikely to feel obligated by some individual mandate to buy health insurance.  

so, what happens when they don't?

[Miss Mia]

okay, what happens when they don't?  people who's presence in this country is a violation of federal law are very unlikely to feel obligated by some individual mandate to buy health insurance.  

so, what happens when they don't?

It's a catch-22.  The government hasn't been to willing to deport illegal immigrants up to this point.  Maybe we'll give them amnesty a la Reagan.  Maybe we'll start going after the companies that hire illegal immigrants finally. 

[JohnBrowdie]

It's a catch-22.  The government hasn't been to willing to deport illegal immigrants up to this point.  Maybe we'll give them amnesty a la Reagan.  Maybe we'll start going after the companies that hire illegal immigrants finally. 

short of establishing a police state, doing away with most of the laws pertaining to search and seizure, and repealing a few amendments (some of the more annoying ones, as a matter of fact  ), deporting every single illegal alien simply isn't possible.  INS can't handle it, the courts can't handle it, and state and local authorities can't handle it.  but having said that, illegals get deported in droves every day of the week;  the deportation function just isn't simple, especially in an open society.  so, I don't think government is in any way resisting deportation of illegals.   it's a matter of funding, and then an argument over jurisdiction -- the feds vs. local jurisdictions.

and just trying to follow you on the health care thought, but are you saying that a government option is the preferred health care reform, and to the extent that illegal aliens are a problem, the solution is to simply make them legal?  you only think that we are hearing protests right now.  if the dems try that one, they are going to remember august as "the good old days".

and the extreme liberal argument (not the one you are making, I know) that companies are somehow immune from prosecution for employing illegals actually gets funny.  there is this notion that there is some sinister corporate conspiracy in operation, and only wal-mart, haliburton, and shell oil are employing illegals.  hatred and invective ensue.   but it turns out that illegals work for the corner dry cleaners, family farms, small construction companies, and generally small and mid-sized businesses.  putting my dry cleaner out of business because the guy that drives the van is illegal is a bit of overkill.

 

[JohnBrowdie]

It's a catch-22.  The government hasn't been to willing to deport illegal immigrants up to this point.  Maybe we'll give them amnesty a la Reagan.  Maybe we'll start going after the companies that hire illegal immigrants finally. 

I found this article after my reply last night.  it's pertinent to our conversation (or our most recent tangent  ), but it complicates both of our points.  of course, I'm using it to illustrate a case in which the liberal impulse (anti-business, anti-capital, anti-free market) is a large contributing factor when government can't seem to get out of it's own way in the effort to deport illegals.

there are conservatives that are SO HYSTERICALLY anti-immigration that they are also perfectly willing to assess such large penalties against businesses that employ illegals, even unknowingly, that it would drive most of them out of business.  the "death penalty" for employing a single undocumented worker, so to speak.

Why Nevada protects workers here illegally
One reason cited: To avoid ‘perverse incentives’

A class-action lawsuit recently filed by the undocumented employees of a local cleaning company underscores that workers who are in the country illegally have many of the same workplace rights that U.S. citizens have.

That’s particularly important in Nevada because illegal immigrants make up an estimated 12.2 percent of the state’s workforce, according to a 2008 Pew Hispanic Center study.

But the idea that undocumented workers have rights is also controversial. Members of the “What part of illegal don’t you understand?” lobby have consistently expressed indignation about workers in such cases receiving anything but a deportation order.

Nevada Labor Commissioner Michael Tanchek says his agency is firmly resolved to remove what would otherwise be a “perverse incentive” for employers to hire and take advantage of undocumented workers by paying them less than the minimum wage — or nothing at all.

“We’re not going to let them play that game,” the labor commissioner says.
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“Undocumented immigrants are ... ripe for abuse by unscrupulous employers who use it (their status) as a threat,” Morrison says.

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[Miss Mia]

First of all today I read that they're planning on not allowing illegal immigrants to purchase insurance at all now, not like what I previously said where they were going to but with no tax credit or whatever.

Secondly, my opinion on illegal immigration.  One these people come here for a reason, most of them are hard working folk that are just trying to get ahead and help their family.  They do deserve protection from companies that are hiring them and then not paying them at least minimum wage.  Also, I do understand that illegal immigrants are depressing wages at the same time.  I think someone that's here illegally, but wants to stay and doesn't have a criminal record or anything, deserve the right to become citizens. 

Also I do not think a company should be severely punished if they happen to hire an illegal immigrant accidentally.  I know at the dealership we had an illegal immigrant working there, they did everything they were supposed to...get a photo ID & SS card.  It wasn't until he tried to buy a car there that they realized he wasn't a legal immigrant, and he was fired. 

It's a complicated issue and both sides have their share of ridiculous arguments, open borders vs deport them all.  The reality is that we need to do something there in the middle.  I also think building a wall is stupid too and will do nothing to stop people crossing the southern border. 

BTW, the only person I knew that was an illegal immigrant (besides that one guy they fired) was a guy that is British.  He came here on vacation and then stayed.  Eventually he got a woman pregnant and married her, and got a green card eventually.  But there was a downside, turns out he hated his wife, but couldn't divorce her or he'd be deported back to England and he had 3 kids by this time.

[JohnBrowdie]

First of all today I read that they're planning on not allowing illegal immigrants to purchase insurance at all now, not like what I previously said where they were going to but with no tax credit or whatever.

so, the answer is to make it illegal for illegal immigrants to purchase insurance?  and how would you "purchase" health insurance in the case of the government option?

 

[Miss Mia]

so, the answer is to make it illegal for illegal immigrants to purchase insurance?  and how would you "purchase" health insurance in the case of the government option?

 

It's really best that they get insurance or we still have the problem of uninsured going to the ER for a cold....and then not paying the hospital.